I agree with the author that it should be purely on the basis of merit and economic condition. In establishing educational institutions, there are criteria to follow. In gaining acceptance into an institute for higher education, there are criteria to be met by the applicant. How much would an education be devalued by the perception that the "graduate" wasn't really qualified in the first place? I am an opponent of reservations in their current form, and I am definitely opposed to their unbridled misuse in gaining votes. Unrestricted reservations have no place in either education or employment. Open and fair competition for positions encourages people to do their best, and gives real meaning to achievement by one's own merits.

I believe, too, that if any minority establishes a private business or educational interest, they should maintain control of these things. While I can say that open and fair competition is the best for all, I am aware that some people will have the door slammed in their faces through no fault of their own.

I'd like to draw the attention of our Editor to the fact that this article is published under two sections "Education" and "Politics". Was this done intentionally? Additionally, I am curious about the existence of both a "Politics" and a "Politics/Economics" heading. - S. M. Khurshid Anwar, New York, USA - Apr. 9, 2006

Reservation in institutions of international repute is the most unfortunate thing that can happen to a country that is poised to be the hub of world’s economic activity. As has been suggested by others, there are lots that we can do to assist students to come up to the level that is required for such institutes rather than point blank reservation. If the Government is really serious, it can hold competitions, if caste is the factor, for OBCs, select the ones with potential and assist them in every way, perhaps via a separate institution that fosters them for competing. And through this method, if they do not compete in one, they can do, perhaps, elsewhere. Just to make point blank reservation achieves nothing except erodes the reputation of the institutions as centres of excellence and helps to make caste come in everyone’s consciousness all the time. Not sure who thought of this idea at all. As we know, private sector is more demanding than the public sector and if we do not assist students to come to that level that required for future in this area, we will be doing a disservice to one and all. I do hope some sense prevails and such a decision is reversed. - Padmaja - Apr. 9, 2006

Quotas for OBCs in central universities are not fair. If OBCs cannot meet the educational expenses, give them money, not merit. It would lower the standards and reputations of the university. - Satya Prasad - Apr. 9, 2006

The reservation policy is really absurd; they can’t give any logic behind this move. By compromising on the quality of the people in premier institutes, we would end up losing reputation of these institutes which they have made over the years. - Pankaj Nakhat - Apr. 9, 2006

Increasing Reservation in IITs-IIMs Not Fair.

I don't understand why these governments (read NDA, UPA) at the center are determined to spoil the educational environment of the nation. The NDA government wanted to decrease the fee of the IIMs to such a low level which was totally unacceptable, given the kind of environment one gets at these premier B-Schools. And now, this UPA government wants to increase the OBC quota for these renowned colleges. If these governments are really serious about doing some thing for the OBCs and the poor then why don't they come up with new Institutions for these people? Why are they interfering in something which is already established and famous for their excellence in the whole world?

By this, I don't mean that I am against development opportunities for poor or educational rights for OBCs.

You clear a CAT entrance and, there are a thousand banks behind you to sponsor your studies irrespective of whether you are rich or poor. Because they know that your future is secure and after your post-graduation you will be financially independent. So, they don't hesitate risking their money on you. Then what's the need of decreasing the fee of these educational paradises? Note that these institutions charge high so that they can provide a certain kind of environment which is conducive to learning.

Similarly, if you have merit in you, you will qualify for the JEE. The status of your caste won't matter at all. Then what does this whole funda of reservations for OBCs mean? Does it mean that they are not as intelligent or studious as they should be when compared to general category? I don't think so. I don't think that intelligence or merit is dependent on your belonging to general category or OBC. Still, if required new institutions can be established, or number of seats can be increased for the OBCs people. And, then these institutions can be asked to set standards for themselves which are comparable to IITs or IIMs. But, no!! The government will not do that! Rather, it would just interfere in the personal matters of these highly acclaimed colleges and would impose its own rules and regulations on these colleges. Just to get some votes and remain in power. This is really ridiculous!!!

Think about this: The government never comes with a rule like there should be a 50 percent reservation for the OBCs in the parliament. It's not able to pass the Women's reservation Bill in the parliament which says that 33% of the parliament seats will be reserved for the women. Why...??? Do the same rules which it tries to impose on educational institutions don’t not apply to the government itself...??? - Amit Kumar - Apr. 9, 2006

Does anyone notice? The Pandora box of Mandal-II unfolded during exams session (Mar-Apr-May) . This is well-planned conspiracy to ramble and weaken the preparations of General Category candidates. The same, happened during Mandal-I, in year 1990-91. The general category, examines were intentionally targeted. With frustration many students, burned their books, certificate and even themselves. When I was in college, hardly had a pair of shoes. But a friend of mine, who was ST and his father was General Manager in coal mines, used to buy new fancy shoes with each stipend he was getting from Govt. Another friend from Chennai, who is Muslim and did engineering through OBC Category is a son of a rich businessman in Chennai. He has his own Mercedes Benz and each of his three brothers had their own bungalow in the heart of the city.

Like every drug has side-effects, democracy too has its own. Democracy is truly for majority. Time to Time, the political classes used to formulate a group of majority with new sets of categories. The BSP, VHP, MY-group and OBC-SC-ST are result of such formulations. Irrespective of our cry, as it happened earlier, this time too, the reservation will be implemented at any cost with thumping votes in Parliament. The media is tuning this issue and burning the debates with full swing. But the end-result is known to everyone. So it is a foolish act by general category candidates to outcry against reservation and waste their mind and energy.

So, for resurgence, the students of general categories should continue concentration on study and try to accomplish respective goals. Any deviation means twiddling on the tunes of Politicians. If we deserve it, we will get it, sooner or later.

Following a known proverb "Loha Lohe ko Katata hai," the only antidote to fight the Ghost of Caste-based Reservation is to have an incarnation of Chanakya, who can group Economically Backward Class with a motto to convert the current 50% cast-based reservation to poverty based reservation and believe me, 80% of the Indians will fall in this category. Wait and watch, this will happen as poor fellas of OBC/SC/ST will realize soon that, crèmes of reservation is consumed by rich peers of their community. - Tarakeswar Dubey - Apr. 10, 2006

Let us discuss few myths

Myth: It will lower the quality and standard of these premium institutions.

Fact: These entities have 22% reservation for SC & ST since their inception. Still these institutions have attained highest level of standard despite reservation for weakest section of society. I fail to understand that how come a "non-meritorious" classmate will take away your merit and marks in semester examinations. Do you know that NITs (formerly Regional Engineering colleges, RECs) have 50% seats reserved for the state students in which the NIT falls to?

In fact this may increase the brand and market value of General category students who will make it to IITs despite reservations. Govt. should increase the intake so that almost same number of students in general category will join IITs as they are now getting. President of India has suggested the same thing.

Merit is a relative term, if there are 200 seats, then there are only 200 meritorious students (reservation or no reservation), if there are 2000 seats then there are 2000 meritorious students. And it again is related to job market also. In 2001, many IIT students got regret letters from probable employers who had selected them during campus interview. While now an engineering graduate from 3rd grade donation college is also able to get plum job in MNC IT Company. You may find that a meritorious MBBS graduate is not able to find a suitable Doctor job and may be unemployed.

Myth: Quota should be based on economic criteria.

Fact: Those who oppose quota system on the ground that it undermines merit, they suggest economic criteria for quota in the same breath. But quota on any ground is always at the cost of merit be it based region or caste or economic conditions.

The Supreme Court of India in it's judgment on Mandal commissions on November 16th, 1994 (not so long back) has already discarded economic criteria for quota and ruled in favour of Mandal Commission. This judgment came after a long process of arguments and counter arguments and a bench of 9 (Nine) highly knowledgeable and meritorious judges heard this case. Of course the judgment excluded a "creamy layer" among OBCs (this creamy layer concept is not applicable to SC & ST).

Quota system is not a "garibi hatao" program. It is an instrument in the hand of State (India is a welfare state) to extend the opportunities to a very vast section of society. Why do upper-caste have no or negligible presence in low kind of job say like "safai karmchari" in Municipal Corporation and only low caste people take these jobs? The reason is - social "conditioning" since time immemorial which has created this mental barrier.

I am sure that a vast majority of students (more than 80%) aspiring to get into IITs or IIMs etc. are opposed to this quota. It simply means that 80% or more students are of upper castes, irrespective of their economic conditions. If more from other sections can become "aspiring" students then the percentage of upper castes may decrease (because the pie "student" itself will become bigger) and the competition will become more fierce, produce more merits.

Just concluded IIT JEE 2006 exam, there were 3 lakh students competing for around 5000 seats. With new quota system in place, in near future, there may be 6 lakh students fighting for few thousand seats. In the long run, this may result in narrowing the gap between cut-off marks for open and reserved categories.

Through quota system, the welfare state is saying to a vast majority of mass to come forward and join the mainstream (become aspiring students) and break the mental barrier. And precisely for this reason, our Constitution has specifically talked about special privilege and measures for socially and educationally backward community. Caste based quota is a constitutional measure and Supreme Court has already vindicated this.

Myth: Give education, better faculties and other things to underprivileged class but not reservation.

Fact: It is a question of implementation of welfare measures. Who will implement these things? Let me give an example to drive my point. We have a set of strict rules and regulations against those who take dowries. Who have to take actions against such violators? Our administration, right? But this has failed to stop dowries practice. You know why? IAS gets very high dowries, then how come you expect IAS/IPS to implement these policies and rules. Implementers lack intention.

Similarly a system, which is dominated by upper-castes, will not be reliable and enough to implement welfare measures for weaker sections of the society such that the weaker sections do not remain weak and become equally strong. Have you not heard a saying like "Agar saara kutta kashi chala jayega to jutha pattal kaun chatega? or what my "master saheb used to remind us regularly - "Agar sab padhiye jayega to fir bojha kaun dhoyega?"

And similarly the Govt. cannot wait for a social activist to create awareness among socially weaker sections so that they also become "aspiring" students. Govt. has to take some solid measure, which empowers and assures weaker sections.

You may become a social activist to create awareness of equality among all sections of society so that quota becomes irrelevant.

Myth: The quota policy will divide the nation on caste line.

Fact: It has the potential to create a stronger society.

Mahatma Gandhi had to struggle a lot (not long back, but just around 70 years ago, read any history book) to get admission of "harijans" into temples. There was murderous attempt (much before 1948) on his life to stop him in doing so.

When Mandal was announced in 1990, violent protests erupted everywhere. That "protest" resulted in caste polarization even among illiterates. Any reservation has nothing to do with illiterates but the violent protest gave wrong impression to all that one is to lose big and other is to gain big.

But this time (media is terming it as "Mandal II"), I am yet to see such protests. It is a very healthy sign in itself. Apart from various reasons to this, one definite reason is that now the center of protest during Mandal of 1990 (Delhi university or JNUs) are having a significant high number of students from OBC category as well.

So in less than 100 years, society is moving from "no admission in temples" to privileged admission in temples of knowledge to lower caste people.

Most of the people on this forum love our visionary Chief Minister Shri Nitish kumar. I am more than sure that Nitish Babu supports quota for OBCs. He recently announced 50% reservation for women in Panchayat elections.

The reservation will not divide the society but a violent protest will definitely divide the society. Don't arouse passion and emotions against the quota system. Accept this, and start living with this positive discrimination for a healthy society where merit is not determined based on birth.

Myth: Quota will create a hurdle in development and progress of the nation and is bad for the society.

Fact: Social indicators reveal that southern states and parts of western India have fared far better socially and economically than the rest of the country despite having caste-based reservations for decades. High levels of social and political consciousness, in comparison to parts of India, which did not follow policies of affirmative action, have been largely responsible for these achievements. In short, affirmative action did not compromise on merit, but instead empowered a wide spectrum of the population to aspire to social and economic mobility. Among those who succeeded were communities that had been left out of the social mainstream and also happened to constitute majority of the population. A society where portals of 'merit' are restricted to a privileged minority, especially when the privilege is determined at birth, is a regressive society.

Myth: Merit based society is what we should aspire. Those who have merits will survive and those who do not have merits will not survive.

Fact: Merit is worshipped in our country. But this alone will not lead to a civilized society. With a vast pool of meritorious IAS officers, we should have been a developed nation by this time. An IAS does not need to deliver as he has already proved his merit. Can we have an examination system which will select the most meritorious person as the Prime Minister of India.

"Uncivilized Society = Jiski lathi uski bhains" does not conclude to

"Civilized Society = " Jiski merit uski bhains" but it leads to "Lot many buffalos and milk to all".

I do agree that quota system might need some fine tuning at time to time but it must be viewed as "positive discrimination" for long term gain. - Prabhat Sinha, Noida, UP, INDIA - Apr. 10, 2006

This Reservations Policy adopted by the greedy clan of politicians to secure their Parliament, Legislature seats and government-allocated bungalows and cars and host of other facilities which they get by virtue of these seats is in my view, totally a murderous step which has already killed the young dreams of those who wanted to make it a reality by using their brain and hard work.

They talk of uplifting and bringing forward the downtrodden class which in many cases are already flourishing classes. I don't want to name them but many of my friends who are entitled to such biased patronage are like so well to do since their last three generations, I wonder for what reasons they should be further given this benefit.

The head in Manmohan Singh and company is that of an idiot and supporters like Nitish Kumars are in this case too are equal idiots .

I would rather suggest these politicians in order to make the downtrodden classes more strong, instead of snatching common people's basic rights they should personally take some steps like :

1. Marrying their wards to candidates from downtrodden class as this will not only entitle the boy or girl from such classes to avail the fruits of luxury and facilities that one gets by being members of Parliament but also their entire family will get benefit from such step .

2. Each and every member who supports this act in Parliament should put in writing that whenever they fell ill they will be treated by a doctor who has earned his degree by the grace of this reservation law. This will ensure the quality for others .

When I write this I also have a strong feeling that such policies tend to create a distance amongst different classes of society, not all benefiting from this are strong supporters of such policy but unfortunately they bear the brunt for being a part of certain class. This is another side of the same coin.

In my view in India, a person with strong logic and honest values is our President A. P. J. Abdul Kalam. If such feelings of the people could reach him he should intervene and establish what is right and balanced. - Sonali Sinha - Apr. 10, 2006

Dear friends, it is sheer waste of time to discuss whether there should be reservation or not for OBC. Whether it is right or wrong, we will have to accept or will be forced to accept it. Now only valid question should be - what % is sufficient and for how long? Is 49.5% sufficient? Or it will be increased to 80% after 20 years and later made to 100%. It is democracy… and whatever majority decides, minority will have to accept.

What reservation has done to the nation? Even after 58 years or reservation, Naxalites have outnumbered government in providing employment. 5% of the creamy layer of these societies makes sure that rests are not able to avail the benefits.

Our leaders were very enthusiastic in declaring that decision of reservation was taken unanimously in the Assembly and no one opposed. Only other decision that is taken unanimously is increment of perks to these leaders. And historically, no one oppose "Chir haran of Draupadi" in the Hastinapur Darbar. - Om Kumar - Apr. 10, 2006

Greetings!

Lot has transpired in the past couple of weeks since I deliberated on a national plague called Sonia Gandhi. Some called my attacks personal. I begged to differ. Now you know why. So I decided to mirror my heart here. I agree with most of the comments already made from our distinguished readers. Did reservation to the SC/ST slingshot them to wider recognition and acceptance in the society? Barring rare exceptions, have we noticed any social restructuring that has helped them join the mainstream? Are they not still a delineated lineage of folks that have been relegated to menial labor? All this despite the fact that for years now they have managed a good 22.5% in most respectable institutions and job positions in public sector. Now let's take the OBCs - Other Backward Classes - The whole concept is wrong. What decides a person is backward - is it his lineage, birth credentials, economically deprived or just his moral values and his thinking? Why does caste be the basis of judgment to decide if the person is backward? Why can't his ideals and his principles be much less his economic standings?

Anyways coming to the moot point that we have been mulling over. There are few reasons why this can really backfire.

1. Mr Kalam and Mr Arjun Singh are thinking of increasing the number of seats in these premier institutions. Are they even aware of the scarcity of good teachers in these institutions currently and if they increase the number of seats they will have to compromise with teachers of lesser expertise to maintain a reasonable teacher to student ratio. It does not take rocket scientist to interpret the outcome of this. The overall excellence and brand recognition these premier institutions enjoy will deteriorate to the point of no return.

2. Recently we heard IIM graduates being offered salaries to the tune of 150-200 K in USD from world top financial firms such as Barclays, Lehman Brothers, HSBC etc. We will do well to remember that these financial firms closely monitor the functioning of these premier institutions. For them quality is paramount and if there is any compromise on that front then it is anybody's guess on where the future of our country is headed. Once what used to be the "Cynosure of all Eyes" would be the "Sore of all Eyes". IIM graduates would no longer be considered the Exclusive Lot and their market value will take a undeserved bashing.

3. I invite Arjun Singh to a roadside slum on Nala Road and Maila Tanki in Patna where all the musahars and the doms live. I want him to visit each of them personally. Since he claims to be the messiah of the downtrodden I would suggest he gleefully accepts the hospitability in food and drinks they have to offer and then tell me how many of them can make it to any of the IIMs and IITs. These poor kids don’t even have dimes and pennies, forget going to an elementary school. And Arjun Singh plans to reserve a big chunk of seats for them. Arjun Singh, another Sonia stooge - don’t be a skeleton in the closet because all Sonia will do is teach you at best to dance. If you have any common sense, make them economically strong. Set up schools for them where their educational reconditioning prepares them for a better tomorrow. Without a strong foundation that one generally acquires in schools and colleges how would you make them future IIM'ians and IIT'ans? Oh well, they don’t have to. One day they will rise from the rags and claim their reservation quota. And there they are - our future IITians.

4. The national assembly passed it. What is their credibility? Some of them don’t even have a matriculation. And yet there are others who have criminals records in some measure. Others are just stooges and the rest all spineless leeches who suck local janta's blood. It is a pity that such important issues are left at the mercy of these swine who have flesh and bones but lack that ever elusive thing called conscience. This is not an end. This is just a beginning. Emboldened they will set the tone for more "affirmative actions" say in private sector jobs. Let your imagination run riot and the fatal consequences are for all to see. Most of the foreign companies that are heavy revenue generators will disappear in thin air.

5. Such open favoritism, unconstitutional in every sense, will trigger a mass exodus of "crème de la crème" in pursuit of quality education abroad. In recent years we were happy to see the reverse brain drain but such trends will cease to exist.

A politically motivated stunt for personal gains is now being praised as "Affirmative Action". Mandal II has finally arrived. It's time someone does a Rang De Basanti on Arjun Singh (remember what they did to the defence minister in the movie). Such swine deserve no less. - Siddharth Verma - Apr. 10, 2006

Mr. Prabhat Kumar:

Your logic is so twisted that it deserves to be left alone and not answered.

However, I am going to be the punching bag for people like you so ergo:

How much percentage of reservation in private and public sector jobs or admissions do you want for your class? (I am assuming you are from the SC/ST/OBC class because according to your own logic, and I quote: "vast majority of students (more than 80%) aspiring to get into IITs or IIMs etc. are opposed to this quota. It simply means that 80% or more students are of upper castes". So by that logic, anyone favoring this proposal (the rest 20%), like you, must be from SC/ST/OBC class).

It was 29%, now it's going to be almost 50%. Will that satisfy people like you who scoff at the merits of merit system? Or would you demand 75% in the next Lok Sabha or Assembly polls? 100%? Let's make it 100%. Will that please your desire to serve humanity? With 100% reserved seats for backward class, all upper class people will become minority. Then we can repeat the cycle for the upper class. We (or you, in this case) will give them 29% reservation, then 50%, and eventually 100% starting the cycle all over again in favor of the lower class people. You are okay with that?

You write: "But quota on any ground is always at the cost of merit be it based region or caste or economic conditions."

So you admit quota system hurts merit system. Then why do you preach it?

You further write: "Why do upper-caste have no or negligible presence in low kind of job say like "safai karmchari" in Municipal Corporation and only low caste people take these jobs? The reason is - social "conditioning" since time immemorial which has created this mental barrier."

And you have problem with that kind of social conditioning, Mr. Kumar? If I teach my children to study hard and find a good job and be prosperous so they don't have to sell 'bidi' at the road corner or become a 'safai karmchari' as you have put it, am I instilling wrong values in them? Will you rather teach your kids to become rickshaw puller or paan-wala than study hard and take a high-paying job in private or public sector? For your information, most upper and lower caste people teach their children to be the best in their lives, find the best jobs, reach for the sky but apparently this concept is foreign to you who come from quota system and expect the government to feed you from birth to death.

You write: "Merit is a relative term, if there are 200 seats, then there are only 200 meritorious students (reservation or no reservation), if there are 2000 seats then there are 2000 meritorious students." If what you are saying is true then why do you need quota system? If you are as meritorious as the non-quota candidate then why can't you compete on your own instead of getting hand-outs from the government?

Mandal Commission that you use as your Bible/crutch to move forward in your life was designed to divide wedge between people like you and me. But people like you are too naive to see the game being played by the likes of V.P. Singh, Arjun Singh, and Manmohan Singh. You have to have 'merit' to understand our so-called leaders' nefarious schemes. People who didn't come from quota system can see through this game but someone like you apparently can't.

Based on some of your previous posts on other than this web site in last few years, you seem to derive some vicarious/sadistic pleasure from the statement that IAS/IPS are the ones who take most dowry in the Indian society. Are you trying to tell us that dowry doesn't exist among the lower class?

In 2002, I was visiting India after a long time. At our house in Patna, we had a maid servant who used to come to our house three times a day. She and her other family members had been employed by our family for well over 20 years and she had become like one of our own family members. One day she brought a bundle of color pictures of the marriage of her daughter and showed them to me. Looking at the pictures, I was thoroughly impressed! You couldn't tell this was a wedding of a lower class person or an upper class person. Same flower-bedecked car, same scenes from jai-mala, same band-party, same display of food, same Banarasi saris etc, not to mention the bride was looking extremely beautiful in her bridal dress and makeup. I was very proud of her. "Here is a woman who has worked so hard throughout her life just so her children can enjoy the amenities and luxuries that she or husband couldn't afford," I thought admiringly. Just then she dropped the bomb! "Ka batai maalik, ladkwa wala sub ek laakh le lelwa tillak mein..."

This is a true story, whether you believe it or not!

So please, don't give us this 'holier-than-thou' image of your so-called backward community. Dowry is evil and exists in all classes in India - backward or forward - so why target only IAS/IPS? Because most of them are from upper class? To me it appears your beef is not with the reservation issue; you are just using it as a tool to spread your hatred against the upper caste.

You write: "Myth: The quota policy will divide the nation on caste line. Fact: It has the potential to create a stronger society."

That's an assumption on your part, Mr. Kumar, and not a fact. When you use the word 'potential', by nature it implies 'tentative' or 'uncertain'. So how did it become a fact? Potential means 'maybe' or 'maybe not'. It's not a fact as you suggest.

Also, there is nothing 'meritorious' about someone not being allowed to enter into a temple based on one's caste. Getting into IITs/IIMs is solely about merit. Please don't compare apples with oranges.

As for Nitish Kumar, he is just another politician who wants to play politics of appeasement to garner support of people like you. Just because he supports it doesn't make it legal or the last word on the issue. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 10, 2006

I graduated from IIT, Kharagpur. In my department we had 7 seats for the reserved category and not a single student to fill those seats. 27 % may be justifiable but increasing the quota to almost 50 % simply amounts to increasing the number of seats that will go vacant. Is the government not aware of these realities. You bet it is! But populism always triumphs over realism in a democracy. Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of communism either.

Give me a single account where the quota was reduced ? It is not possible in a democracy. So if someone sets it at 50%, it sure can't come down.

Some people say it might benefit the OBCs. Really ? I don't think this is what a person of dubious integrity like Arjun Singh has in his mind. He wants to increase his hold over his party. But I fail to fathom how selfish this man can get. He will do Tughlaq with education system if he goes ahead. He's also very arrogant and hard-headed (no wonder he lost three elections to Lok Sabha and got a back-door entry to Rajya Sabha ) and only a miracle will stop him. I bet PM Manmohan Singh is not interested. If he can call Lalu a "Vikas-purush", he might as well call Arjun Singh "Yug-purush". - Rituraj Nandan - Apr. 11, 2006

I just wanted to add that what will happen if somehow Sharad Pawar gets an idea of introducing quota system in Indian cricket team. Finally it will lead to death of cricket and will result in saving lots of man power for India (just kidding) but unfortunately sports is the only field left untouched now.

Please someone forward this to H'ble Sharad Pawar too. - Santosh Kumar - Apr. 11, 2006

It is interesting to read logics of meritorious people on this issue of reservation. Few are really interesting comments. Let me take few of them.

Sonali Sinha writes :- "Each and every member who supports this act in Parliament should put in writing that whenever they fell ill they will be treated by a doctor who has earned his degree by the grace of this reservation law. This will ensure the quality for others ."

When a person gets into a medical college based on quota (SC/ST quota but there are other quotas as well like State quota, or Management Quota, like TISCO has 4 seats in MGM Medical college, Jamshedpur etc.), he/she does not become a Doctor. He/She has to pass each and every semester exam with no reservation support. Semester exam within Medical college has no reservation. What it means that the final successful product has passed all quality test. If an SC Medical Student is not able to clear semester exams, he won't be a Doctor.

Another example - Do you know that a Regional Engineering College (Now NIT) has 50% seats reserved for the state it falls into. Do you think that those who pass out from RECs are inferior engineers? NO. RECs engineers are regarded more talented than non-REC engineers. Few MNCs pay better to REC graduates than others.

Similarly, whatever be the admission criteria, before the final products come out, it has to go through the same and one for all rigorous system. All final products coming out of IIT will be of highest standard and quality otherwise it won't come out.

My talented friend Anil Kumar is able to identify my caste/category based on my posting on this issue. But he is wrong. Anyway he has every right to guess a person's caste. No problem.

But what I find very interesting in his reply to my comments that he picked up Dowry issue and was painstakingly explaining/elaborating that all the castes practice this menace. My dear friend, my example of Dowry case was just to drive a point that implementation of anything requires intention. I was not diverting to another issue, rather I was drawing a parallel that welfare scheme for weaker section cannot be implemented effectively by a system, which has no intention because the system is dominated by the same upper caste who are seen as exploiters. "Mulzim bhi wahi hai.n aur Seepahi bhi wahi ?".

He further writes: - "If I teach my children to study hard and find a good job and be prosperous so they don't have to sell 'bidi' at the road corner or become a 'safai karmchari' as you have put it, am I instilling wrong values in them? Will you rather teach your kids to become rickshaw puller or paan-wala than study hard and take a high-paying job in private or public sector? For your information, most upper and lower caste people teach their children to be the best in their lives, find the best jobs, reach for the sky but apparently this concept is foreign to you who come from quota system and expect the government to feed you from birth to death."

Now everyone can see that who is twisting the logic. Through quota system, Govt. is asking a large section of society that please encourage your wards to think much beyond "Safai - karmchari" and join the race with others.

What is happening in the debate over quota system that focus is only on "whether reservation is right or wrong". And a much important issue gets lost in this debate that "Who could be part of OBC, who are real OBC". But first accept the fact that reservation is right step. It is legal and constitutional. Didn't the Honorable Supreme Court said the same thing? - Prabhat Sinha, Noida, UP, INDIA. - Apr. 11, 2006

I have friends from almost all casts. One of my friends belongs to SC/ST. He is preparing Medical exams for nearly 10 years and he didn't pass even a preliminary exam. Why? There are many examples in which the reserved seats do not fill because these people do not read in good schools in early stages. This all happen because of politics. Our politician are very very clever. They know no educated person will vote for cast (except some corrupt-minded people). An educated person will first see development issues. So, they come up with these kind of offers... where lower cast remains poor but they are shown a dream and they vote for them. If politicians have the development of SC/ST/OBC in mind then why don't they come with policies that will improve their foundation and then there will not be any need for reservation? Same thing happened to Bihar. Lalu Prasad was claiming "Garibon ka neta" so he made all Biharis "Garib". Bihar had 53-54% literacy in 1991 survey but it is now less than 47%.

The only solution of dirty politics is EDUCATION. If India has 100% education then all politician will have only one issue left Development. We all know these things but what do we do?? If we can't do anything then it is a waste on discussing these issues. - A student from Bihar - Apr. 11, 2006

Quota reservation in IIT, IIM and other central universities is aimed to divide and rule the country. These politicians have failed to provide quality educations to all even after 58 years of Independence. They have also failed to provide even basic education and needs such as water electricity and shelter for the masses specially for those whom politicians want to give social justice. These people do not want to work, they know only rajniti. Rajniti karte hain logon ko ullo banate hain upni roti sekte hain. Quota reservation is also one step towards it. No politician is interested in increasing the number of such institutes. All are talking to ensure for one at the cost of others. Doing social justice to one at the cost of other is only aimed to divide the society.- Jyoti Sinha - Apr. 11, 2006

To Mr. Prabhat Sinha: Allow me to refresh your memory. "I am sure that a vast majority of students (more than 80%) aspiring to get into IITs or IIMs etc. are opposed to this quota. It simply means that 80% or more students are of upper castes, irrespective of their economic conditions." These are YOUR words just few paragraphs above, not mine.

So you are at a liberty to surmise that 80% of those people who oppose quota system are from upper castes but I am not allowed to interpret that the rest 20% (those who favor quota system, including you) are from lower castes? Based on YOUR logic, I have no choice but to conclude that you are from the lower caste (supporter of reservation). And if you are not from the lower caste then your logic is faulty.

Not that it matters what caste you are from - the point is your logic is totally flawed! 80% oppose quota so 80% are from upper castes. This is your logic, not mine!

I have seen your various posts in the past and you continue to pick on IASs/IPSs. Do you have a personal axe to grind against them? You are the one who are constantly accusing them of dowry while carefully, like a vote-hungry politician, failing to mention the existence of dowry in the backward castes. My example that dowry exists in other communities as well simply countered your continued onslaught on upper caste on one pretext or another whether it's reservation or dowry. Once again, I remind you, the issue of dowry was raised by you, not me.

Being anti-upper caste is one thing and being an expert in Mandal/Kamandal politics is another.

I do recall you launching a crusade a few months back to have an IIT in Bihar. However, if your idea is to have 100% reservation in these institutes then Bihar is better off without them.

You still haven't responded to my question on how much percentage of reserved seats you want at these institutes that will make you permanently happy and hopefully, put an end to this debate once and for all. To minimize further grief on your part, I suggest make it 100% so those 80% (your number) migrate to some other countries and then you can continue to fight within your own community without ever having to worry about dealing with upper caste candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if later you demand reservation within reservation (what a concept! I wonder if your leaders have already thought of this) - 20% reservation for Yadavs, 7% for musahar, 5% for dhobis, 18% for pasis and so on. Advocates of reservation will not be satisfied under any situation because their real goal is not to help uplift the community based on merit - their ultimate goal is to become a neta by adopting divide and rule policies. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 12, 2006

I have no desire to make the on-going debate on reservation on this excellent platform provided by PatnaDaily to appear as "Anil Kumar - Prabhat Sinha" debate. But as my talented friend has made it to appear like that, I would like to put my stand once again very clear. I hope editor saheb would give me the opportunity to do so.

Mr. Anil Kumar, would you please re-read my first comments on this issue? The portion you have selected to identify my caste is having a phrase like "students (more than 80%) aspiring to get into IIT..". Why are you ignoring the word "aspiring"? If you twist my logic (by conveniently ignoring the word aspiring) then you would conclude that "as per Prabhat Sinha's logic, all the nine judges of the Supreme Court who gave verdict in favour of Mandal Commission, belonged to Lower castes". My dear friend, I am not an aspiring student to get into IIT or IIM, so please don't apply the logic on me. Period.

I mentioned about IAS/IPS in the context of implementation of welfare schemes for weaker section of the society, (because they are the backbone of the system which has to implement any Govt. measure be it Dowry laws or labor laws or welfare scheme) and they have miserably failed to implement any good policy because they lack intention. Why they lack intention I have already explained. Another example:- You know that in Delhi, after a court order, Delhi Govt. made a law for Public Schools to take few students from "economically" weaker sections, but what is happening that the student (and his poor parents) are harassed and subjected to daily abuse in such a way by the school authority that these poor students end up leaving the schools. What I am highlighting is that intention plays the most import/crucial role. (Please now don't start concluding that I have a grudge against school authorities as well).

Regarding you asking me that how much percentage of reservation I want (though you have already cribbed like "khisiyani Billi khambha Noche" that I have advocated 100% reservation, show me where did I say like this), I would request you to first accept that reservation is a positive step and then we would move to "Which caste should get it" and "How much percentage is right". Please read the last para what I have said in my previous posting, I repeat it here : "What is happening in the debate over quota system that focus is only on "whether reservation is right or wrong". And a much important issue gets lost in this debate that "Who could be part of OBC, who are the real OBC". But first accept the fact that reservation is right step. It is legal and constitutional. Didn't the Honorable Supreme Court say the same thing?"

I would request you and everybody to read an eye opening article in today's (12-April-2006) The Times of India's Delhi edition which has appeared on editorial page where the author has questioned about who are the real OBCs. An eye opener article titled "True inheritors of Mandal". - Prabhat Sinha, Noida, UP, INDIA - Apr. 12, 2006

I think reservation is a necessary tool for building India. Unless majority of Indians are represented and included in the Indian nation we cannot form a nation. I want to request all the so-called upper caste to accept this fact. Most of you will not be hurt by this (how many of you would have gone to IIT but for the reservations?). So for the first time in your lives please sacrifice for the development of India and support the reservations. The medical/engineering schools in India are competent enough to make a good doctor or engineer out of a person who scored slightly less than a general candidate in the rote-learning kind of entrance exams. You always have a choice not to see this doctor or consult this engineer but at least the lower caste people will have a choice to go to one of them who will treat them like humans. After years of humiliating, harassing and torturing people by way of the caste system this is the minimum that can be done to correct the past wrongs. Otherwise the day is not far when India will be a slave nation again. - Rajendra Kumar - Apr. 12, 2006

Whatever you say Mr. Sinha. Apparently you are an expert in Mandal/Kamandal politics and I am just a nobody, upper caste idiot. How will I understand the pain of your people? Thanks for the lively debate. I am done with it.

Before leaving, however, I would suggest don't show your face in the public only when reservation or caste issues crop up on the internet forums. It gives rise to suspicion of your vested interest. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 12, 2006

Another debate on quota….

Reservation is a fact. No politician will have guts to decrease reservation for next foreseeable future.

There is a very good way in my opinion to uplift truly deserving oppressed -

1. By ensuring children of doctors/lawyers/MBAs/engineers/MLAs/MPs /IAS officers /rich businessmen etc. etc. do not get reservations we’ll ensure the needy get reservation and there should be strong law making it a crime to fake creamy layer.

This way needy get reservation and more people will benefit from reservation (instead of a elite rich few).

The strongest proponents of reservation are the people who want a good future for their own children but not the true MBCs or dalits in village.

2. If OBCs can have creamy layer why cant SC/ST have creamy layer? Don’t the poor SC/STs deserve a better chance as compared to their rich and powerful brethren? - Shashank Prasad - Apr. 12, 2006

Where in world Mr. Prabhat Kumar Sinha got the number of 80% being from upper cast aspiring to study in premium engineering colleges? I graduated from REC in 1990. And we had less than 50% from upper cast. We had significant number from student from Yadavs, Kurmis etc. and that in spite of no Mandal at that time. To a great extent I do understand situation of SC and ST but the whole gambit of OBC coming under reservation umbrella, the day is not that far when we would have 100% reservation. May be state of Tamil Nadu will take lead on this. Even in case of SC/ST, what I have seen (a lot), there would be families full of engineering and doctor and still they keep getting benefits. I am not sure from what angle they are still considered back ward.

There was a comment from gentleman about student coming through reservation quota being slightly less meritorious, then why do not we simply create more seats and let them try through general quota. I do not mean to say all reservation quota students are less capable and vice versa. But more seat should help less meritorious students, if that is the case. - Rajesh Pandey, USA - Apr. 12, 2006

We are told reservations have been provided to uplift those crushed and vanquished for generations. If we remember foreign invaders and British oppressed Indians for hundreds of years. Its time the Indian govt. went to each of these countries and demanded reservation in jobs and social benefits for oppressing poor Indians for several hundred years.

I wonder what steps are being taken to reserve seats in private sector, politics (in addition to SC/ST seats), Indian army and Indian teams at sporting events. Imagine a situation where 100 mts sprints were reserved or batting/bowling slots of our Cricket team were reserved. - Dr. S. Kumar UK - Apr. 16, 2006

Discussion on this topic is now closed.