The most famous Parsee of them all is our former Prime Minister, Rajeev Gandhi. In the 1984 Lok Sabha elections, he got the most clear mandate in the Indian electoral history, ever. - Som Vishwakarma, USA - Feb. 4, 2006

A very poor metaphor. You could have recited over a dozen or so names of the Indian-Muslims whose contributions to India surpass those of any other minority. Please think of something original and constructive. - S. Ashraf Imam - Feb. 4, 2006

Please do not be sad Mr. Imam. This story had a side note about the Parsee community. It was not a contest to see which minority/majority has contributed more. When you have a recipe of Pua, you don't mix the ingredients for Biryani in it.

Surely the contribution of the Muslim community is great and surely I will write about it someday (I have written in past too), but this article/story talked about the Zardushti (Parsee community) in isolation of all other communities.

It is surprising to see that those who were clobbered into acceptance of a faith (Muslims of Aryan ancestry by the Arabs, or South-American Christians by the Spaniards) are the most adherent and fundamental in their attitudes towards a system that slaughtered their ancestors by the swipe of the sword or by burning alive on the stake (in case South American Christians). - Aarcee - Feb. 5, 2006

In my opinion, the author was not trying to eulogize any community. His message did not reach to some of us. Mr Ashraf, you are right to say that the contribution of Indian Muslims to India surpasses that of other minorities (possibly due to the fact that they are the largest minority). But, you must accept that if someone gives Muslim's example here, then some Hindus will accuse him of appeasement and some Muslims will doubt his intention. And the discussion will go to a level, which you would not appreciate. It is a good practice not to discuss religion in public, I believe.

Parsis are just a safer bet. - Kumod Jha - Feb. 5, 2006

Mr. Aarcee, I do not think you know the history of Islam and how it spread; you are biased as all the world is. It seems that it is easy to make propaganda against Islam, but that does not make it true. Do you know why and how Islam came to India? Mostly people like to perpetuate the story that Islam was spread with the sword. You should be ashamed to feel so free to write these things. Please go back to school and read it, as it is well written in History. Why did Muslims attack Iran and India? Not a single Muslim is trying to hide any truth, and will tell you facts and not the words that others hide behind. This is a forum for Bihar, so how did Parsee and Iran come into this?

"Like Tooti, many people of Persia fled and went to Hindoostan when Yazdegerd was killed (by an Arab named Omar). The Arabs wanted to destroy the Persian culture and replace it with their own. They burnt Persepolis, the Capital of Persia down to ashes and thrust the sword of Islam down the throats of the Persian."

I resent the way that you have portrayed Islam and Muslims in your piece. How many people would accept being described as blood-thirsty? You did not type those words, but that was the impression left by them. The history is documented --- I am not denying that happened, but I am saying there are things you are omitting, and this makes this have a strong anti-Islam feeling.

Personally, I would much prefer it if you did not write any articles about Islam and Muslims. As much as Muslims do not need to be maligned, they do not need to be patronized like obedient children. We are capable of protecting and respecting our religion. Over time, I had come to expect a certain thoughtful manner of writing by you. This particular piece has damaged my assessment of your intentions. Thanks for your consideration. - S. M. Khurshid Anwar, New York, USA - Feb. 5, 2006

Mr Khurshid has said what I avoided saying for the obvious reasons. There are certain facts which are best in the books of history and anthropology, not in public discussion forums. Religious conversion is a very sensitive topic, best not to be discussed at the cost of communal harmony.

I do not think Mr Aarcee maligned any religion itself, but the barbaric periods of history. But, we don't mind being ignorant of those facts, if that hurts some of our brothers, which is quite natural. I can tell numerous bitter facts about the history of my own religion, but what result will I achieve of that?

Mr Aarcee, keep writing articles on historical and anthropological topics, but I request you to measure each word before writing. I know this is like walking on a tight rope and that is why I do not discuss religion and politics in public. Ultimately, this does more harm than any benefit. You are better educated than many of us, and so the responsibility is more on your shoulders. I am sure you can handle this.

I request Mr Ashraf and Mr Khurshid too to avoid being sentimental. In one way, that also will draw more comments and the wound will be fresher and bigger.

I apologize to everyone who was hurt due to some lines in this article. Let bygones be bygones. - Kumod Jha - Feb. 6, 2006

It is sad that one can not talk of an event in history without treading on feelings of a few. Most of the time, people who wear eye glasses of a particular colour see that colour preferentially in everything - if you put on yellow glasses and look at the sky, the clouds appear yellow but the blue sky appears black! The blue colour does not get through! In fact, in the days of black and white photography, this technique was used to enhance the effect of outdoor shots! Darn it! I digressed again!

Coming back to the point, my reference to the events in History was not intended to malign Islam.

History is witness to the plunder of Persia both by Iskandar (aka. Sikhandar, Alexander) of Greece and the armies of Omar, the Arab. If I lament the invasion of Arabs, it is more for the culture (not religion) they uprooted. I have the same lament on the Hindu side of things. The original culture of the Aryan people was destroyed similarly by incorporation of the local cultures of India. For example, the Gods and goddesses we see the Hindus worshipping, were not even there originally. A reverence of nature got transformed into worship of idols. Many deities were picked up from the tribal non Aryan peoples of the Indian Subcontinent. Shiva, for example was a local deity that got incorporated. The original belief system was not Hinduism, as some might think. When it got corrupted by the local superstitions and dogmas, it emerged as Hinduism, as we know it today.

If we look at pre-Islamic traditions, we see the remnants of the original culture. The celebration of Holi in India, the celebration of Nau Roz in the Aryan Muslim countries (Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran) are remarkably similar. Many in India do not know, that like the Hindus of India, the Muslims of Iran celebrate this spring festival of NauRoz with the same gusto Holi is celebrated in India. Now look at the similarities - they have a bonfire (like a holika dahan). They have a story of King Shiavash and Kaikawoos which is 90% the same story as that of Prahlad and Hirankashyap. There are many other striking similarities that are too numerous to even list. That was the original culture. Both the Persian Muslims and the Indian Hindus hold two pieces of a broken and forgotten culture - not knowing that both of them fit together.

I lament the supplantation of Arab culture over our original culture (which was Neither Hindu nor Muslim). A leading Muslim Philosopher from Iran put it in rather strong words about the Arabs by saying, "Those Arabs lizard (Farsi - soosmar) meat eaters and Camel (Farsi - shutur) milk drinkers have destroyed our world. Oh God, I spit on our fate!"

Those who misunderstand me, do not understand me. I rest my case with that. - Aarcee - Feb. 6, 2006

PatnaDaily provides a platform for intellectual and erudite discussions related to various socio-economic issues pertinent to India and especially our state Bihar. It is also worthwhile to note that discussions could also point some current issues however not directly involved with the forum, yet of vital importance to share with others.

We the ardent apostle of this forum welcome viewpoints on any topic nevertheless, we would highly appreciate if the writers restrain their intellects and thoughts restricted to the very objective of this forum, id est, to promote the interest of our country and our state.

We must not discuss any religion and personal things at this forum and dilute the pristine sense of our brotherhood at any cost.

There have been instances in this forum where some worthy sons of Bihar have made sharp comments on some persons and religion without weighing the consequences of those words and assertions. Moreover the role of editorial team can also be questioned, as they must filter and edit such remarks and strictures prior to sending them for web publications. The freedom of speech is always respected in every egalitarian society, nonetheless, media must exercise its free speech privilege very responsibly.

One gentleman Mr. Arcee, has gone to the extreme extend of saying “some blasphemous comment like Islam spread by sword and blood shedding, which is highly disgraceful and below moral standard for every educated society like PatnaDaily forum. We simply fail to understand how such writings do make an easy entry here! This forum is not here to demonstrate one’s intellectual and writing skills by sending anecdotes and other irrelevant stuffs having not even hyperbolic relationship with Bihar and the interest of people of Bihar.

We sincerely appeal the editorial team to not to allow such sacrilegious comment about any religion any belief in any manner in this forum. Ignorance of law is not an excuse and we must show our respect towards law and rules while writing and commenting about any issues and moreover we must execute of role very responsibly to make this forum truly popular among all Biharis all around the world. This forum has been a vivid platform for all of us all around the world to share each others’ feelings and sentiments and such piece out of whims and fancies of one particular person can destroy the brotherhood and severely affect the objective of our forum.

To err is human and to forgive divine, but the attack on one’s belief and faith can never be tolerated at least at a platform meant for discussing the promotion of interest of Bihar, and we most ardently appeal the editorial team and other think-tanks of Bihar and PatnaDaily to not to give place for such things which have no connections with Bihar’s socio-economic and cultural interest.

There is a maxim in French worth quoting here that “La franchise ne consiste pas a dire tout ce que i'on pense, mais a pense tout ce que i'on dit, which means that the freedom does not consist to tell all that we think, but to think that all we tell. Perhaps, we still would need to grow mature and learn more, as learning is indeed an endless process, and we hope we would come out with more matured thinking duly juxtaposed with pros and cons of everything we write here on this forum.

We are grateful to the team of PatnaDaily forum and some valued contributors to this sections for their knowledgeable inputs and we request them to strive to establish a benchmark by setting a standard of writing needless to mention related to Bihar and people of Bihar. - Iqbal Azim, Dubai, UAE - Feb. 6, 2006

Truth is truth and lie is lie. Even if hurts somebody's feeling. Even if it provokes a few people, truth must be written and PatnaDaily is no exception.

I agree that we should not only restrict ourselves to caste, religion and reservation discussion but once in a while a realistic analysis is not such a bad idea.

There are lots of people who just want to cover many malicious things behind cover of their faith and belief. And as intellectuals, we will have to strike hard those bad and malicious beliefs. If someone is offended then they should work to eradicate those bad things and not try to cover those.

If we are not hiding the truth for Gujarat violence, Babri demolition and we are not feeling offended by that, I see no reason why someone is offended by calling Arabs invaders.

I can also deny that Babri Masjid was never demolished and Gujarat violence never happened but that will not be the truth. - Kaushal Das - Feb. 6, 2006

As has been rightly pointed out on this forum "You can choose your friends, but your relatives - God chooses them for you! Similarly, our community has been given to us and we have to work with that 'given'."

God has given us a multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-racial society. Members of such societies do not like people ridiculing the religions and their Gods. Let us learn to love and respect our religion, our culture and our people. Love and respect for others will come automatically.

In case we are bored of recipes to improve Bihar, there are many interesting topics on which we can write without stepping on other peoples sentiments. In the modern era an ocean of information is only a few clicks of a button away from us. People can read to their hearts fill if they want to know about any topic. Critical, invasive views/articles and a patronizing attitude have to be avoided even in the inevitable debates. In my opinion, when writing on PD we should select topics which are light and entertaining.

Unless it is for a cause, let us not stick to our guns about telling the truth, or whatever we perceive as the truth. Truth is often bitter. If we start forcing down bitter truth down each others throats, PD will have to rename this forum from 'Readers Write' to 'Readers Fight'. The world will watch us 'intellectuals' disgrace each other on this "Bindaas Bol" forum. - Raj - Feb. 6, 2006

P.S. The parrot story in itself was great.

There is no reason for anyone to be bent out of shape here. I narrated a story of Arab invasion on Persia (not India). The Persian nationalists to this day, despite being ardent Muslims (and I have many Persian friends), resent the way the Arabs treated them. But what is it to us...?

There was a song, "Sikandar ne Porus se ki thi larai. Jo ki thi larai, to main kya karoon?"

Why do we have to entangle our sentiments between the Arabs and the Persians? It was merely a story and should be taken as just that. If there was a historical inaccuracy it should be pointed out without being bent out of shape. As one of our erudite readers has pointed out, sometimes truth is embarrassing and goes against our sentiments... should we rewrite history books to make it a lie ? If such a thing is done, it is plain wrong. Did anyone jump to high heavens if the practice of Sati was portrayed in Aamir Khan's movie, Mangal Pandey? It was an embarrassing truth about our history. As a culture and History buff, I think that Mangal Pandey was a fantastic movie.- Aarcee - Feb. 6, 2006

If we have a Sardarji visiting us, should we entertain him with Sardarji jokes? Some Sardarjis may become ballistic. When a rude white youth tells an Indian "People of your color...", "Brownie" or "Blackie" we feel bad. Why? He is narrating the truth. Isn't he? Similarly the sign "Dogs and Indians not allowed" in Cinema theatres was also a statement of facts under the rules of that era. Why to we get angry reading those words even now?

We are not writing history books on PD. We are interacting with real people. When we interact with people in daily life we avoid talking about anything which may even obliquely hurt the individual's sentiments and beliefs. I guess the same is true on PD. Religion is something which is extremely private to religious individuals. We have to be careful we do not hurt others even by a passing remark.

It is all about peoples sensitivities. Certain things, how so ever true they may seem to us, need not be spoken or written about. After all, not all the people are polite enough to say nothing to the impolite. An argument follows and no one wants to accept defeat. So we end up in knots snapping at each other in a discussion which should never have been started in the first place. Is it for a cause? No. It is a perfectly futile exercise in which no one can win and no one will accept defeat.

Let us respect the sentiments and beliefs of others just like we expect others to respect our sentiments and beliefs. - Raj - Feb. 7, 2006

Mr Raj, I completely agree with you. But, let us not forget that the author's intention was not to talk ill of any religion. This article cannot be compared with the discriminatory racist statements meant to humiliate communities. It was a mistake of putting words in a wrong and irresponsible way. If one removes the words 'thrust the sword of Islam', then there was nothing provocative in the article, in my opinion. These words should not have been taken in their literal meaning, but that does not justify their use.

I did not understand the need for Mr Iqbal, who I admire so much for his writings, to continue the protest even after I apologized to everyone. Our religions are too great to need anyone's protection. Do I need to tell this to my elders?

If the author is blamed for mixing religion with the Arab invasion, then what about those who are selecting words in the article to call it 'blasphemous'? Did anyone say a single word against God or His preaching? Come on, it was about some past kings of Arabia, who just happened to be of a particular religion. I will go as far as to say that they were not the true followers of Him. He did not teach anyone to kill people, then in which way, killing is related to any religion? And if it's not, then what are we protesting against?

We are thankful to Arabs who gave us the numeric system and many other things in the fields of medicine, literature etc. Some tyrants of a particular period in history cannot obliterate the contribution of Arab civilization. If we say all Arabs were barbaric, then we must be racist ourselves.

We should also criticize the fundamentalism and bigotry, but that should be restricted as an introspection by the people of that particular religion. Others have no business to talk of other religions. I condemn the Danish cartoons but I am also not glad to see the violent protests. But then, it is up to them, because if I open my mouth, I will be charged of blasphemy because I am not one of them. It's a sad fact, we like it or not, let us accept it.

I request PD to close this discussion now. We cannot afford to lose the little unity that we have found in the name of Bihar. - Kumod Jha - Feb. 7, 2006

True Kumodji, you are right. The intention does not seem to be to hurt a community but as we all saw people are very sensitive and get hurt at any comment concerning their religion. There is so much turmoil over a cartoon. Words like "blasphemy" and "jihad" are tossed around like toys without understanding the implications. We all have to be careful in selecting our words. - Raj - Feb. 7, 2006

Kumod, India gave the word the numeric/decimal system (not the Arabs). The Arabs merely took it from India and carried it to Europe. Please do not steal credit away from the people where it's due (in this us Indians). Aarcee, calling a spade a spade is sometimes difficult in this world. - Rajendra Kumar - Feb. 8, 2006

Words are the dress of thoughts and it should never be presented in dirt than your own person should be.

With my all due to regards to Mr. Aarcee, who have elucidated his voice against one Arab King Omar, for his invasion on Persia and accession of Persia in Islamic rule of Arabia.

Mr. Aarcee has himself claimed to be an ardent Muslim right here but there are certain facts which goes beyond stronger connotations of fictions like any story telling and mere imaginative assertions. Accordingly, we would like to put following points for clarifications in the same context, that Omar was not a king who invaded Iran, but Caliph Oman Bin Khattab born in 581 AD in city of Makkah in the present Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and was the representative of Muslims (634~644AD) under whose leadership Iran was taken into Islamic rule. And, there is a particular sect in Muslims called Shi’iates who have bitter feelings for all caliphs and they spare no change to criticize their acts and policies of their time.

We would like to highlight one thing here that, if all of us like to protract our brotherhood in the name of Bihar, let us strongly filter out all the nuisances who in any manner try to divide us on the basis or religion color cast and creed which is a veritable danger in our societies. We are the sons of Bihar and that is itself a reason of our unreasonable love and affection. Let us also not use indecent words, as we are here to learn and inculcate good things and progress our mindsets for better Bihar and one of the shining states of the world.

We should avoid writing personal stuffs here in this forum, as many of us attempt to demonstrate ‘I’ and ‘My’ things, which is also not acceptable. The genre of writers of this forum is déjà vu and we have to be convinced with one point that we have to learn more on the same. Things like ‘Moti Chamri’ and other similar words are indecent and must be discarded, and this is our collective responsibility to have a watch on what is coming up here in order to set a benchmark for our forum. One more thing have to bear in mind that our pieces and writings are being read by many others as well and hence decency and veracity are of utmost importance.

We are much indebted to Mr. Kumod Jha for his impartial assessment of works posted here, but the collective responsibility falls on everyone's shoulders moreover, editorial team must carry their duty more decisively on the same.

What pleasant it would have been if anyone would not have penned down assertions on such sensitive topics like religion and belief and we would have continued discussing other topic of vital importance. No one is ever bored with topics related to Bihar and its development, if someone feels boredom in such topics they should better not open other stories and watch what others do have to say! - Iqbal Azim, Dubai, UAE - Feb. 8, 2006

Thanks for correcting me, Mr Rajendra. True, as explained by the Arab historians themselves, Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khawarazmi traveled to India in ninth century to learn science. He went back to introduce Hindu literals, including zero, to Arabs. Arab contribution is to transmit this knowledge to the West, not the invention itself. Decimal system is said to be as old as Indus valley civilization.

My aim was to write of Arab contribution to the world, which is nevertheless significant. Thanks. - Kumod Jha - Feb.8, 2006

While number of comments on this article well exceeded comments on many useful article and while I personally hate to comment on religious and faith-related matter I felt a burning need to write another comment.

Am I the only one who is seeing a malicious effort to take Mr Aarcee's few words out of context and blow it out of proportion? Is tolerance for us means accepting defeat always? Should we always keep quiet no matter how harsh and malicious attack is against us?

Aarcee was right in what he wrote. There are many more harsh words are written against Hindus and Hinduism and many time without comments on PatnaDaily. - Kaushal Das - Feb.8, 2006

Discussion on this topic is now closed.