Mr. Shibu:

Do you have the mental ability to understand the gist of any written article? Reading your comment, it appears you lack this skill. Mr. Aarcee was not being ignorant, as you have wrongly assumed, about what are the appropriate codes regarding the handling of the Indian flag. He was simply questioning the validity of such 'archaic' rules and laws and he gave plenty of examples as to how things are different in other countries. Do you even understand the meaning of 'archaic'. I suggest you look it up.

In your arrogance, you also 'surmised' that Mr. Aarcee is a 'reporter'. This section of PatnaDaily is called 'Readers Write'. Do you know the meaning of 'Readers'? And do you know the difference between a reader and a reporter? Shame on you for being so stupid!

Enough said! - Anil Kumar - Apr. 11, 2007

The original thrust of my article was that the present laws for upholding the honor of the National flag are archaic. The incident must be seen in spirit. A literal interpretation of the law prohibits people from expressing their patriotism by displaying the flag. If the rules for honoring the flag are so stringent that it keeps people from using it as a symbol of their national pride, then it means that the rules need to be relaxed.

Going literally, the flag should only be made of Khadi cotton on a kargha (handloom). Imagine the United Nations with polyester flags of all countries fluttering in the breeze and our khadi flag coloured with vegetable dyes hanging limp and discoloured. We have already deviated from that rule and most Indian flags used internationally are made of the same material that flags of every other countries are made of - synthetic manmade fiber. Should we sue all the flag companies that make our flag like they do it for the rest of the world ?

Per law, the flag should be hoisted only on certain days of the year. Why? Why is being patriotic and hoisting the flag outlawed for the rest of the time? The root of this law lies in the fact that the dyes used in the days before independence did not last too long in the tropical sun. We have better materials and dyes now. Should we still hang on to laws that were relevant once upon a time, but not anymore?

Also, the flag has to be hoisted every morning and taken down at dusk. Most people can abide by this rule, but if someone forgets do take the flag down, should he be held in contempt of the flag and charged for breaking the law? If the answer is yes, then who will want to hoist the flag?! All over the world, businesses and government offices hoist their national flags throughout the year without fear of harassment. You see a lot more flags and it sure does bring a spirit of unity across the national fabric. Why can it not be so in India as well ? Times have changed. We should be able to see huge tricolours billowing over major corporate headquarters. Why hang the sword of punishment rather than adopting guidelines for the proper use of the flag ? Why not look at someone's intent and not interpret his action literally ?

The proper disposal (per law) of an old khadi flag coloured with vegetable dye is through a proper cremation! Is it not a cumbersome method of disposal ? I know there are laws. And as Gandhi said, there can be unjust laws as there are unjust men. This is not an unjust law, but a very impractical law, the literal observation of which prevents people from using the National Flag as their symbol in all aspects of daily life. - Aarcee - Apr. 11, 2007

I think you are wrong here Aarcee. The pride and respect to our national flag should not be negotiable. I also hate the way our reporters do the news and cook it up with all kinds of rants but the basic fault is that Tiranga was desecrated, knowingly or unknowingly. It does not matter whether Sachin knew about it or not, he should be punished for it. It is high time that all these celebrities are held accountable so that it serves as a lesson to others too. That embassy official should have been fired long back. But alas, this will just swept away under the rug.

Whether you like the law or not, it is non-negotiable. Since it is a democracy, we could always demand for the law to be changed with due process but as long as it is law, we ought to follow it. So should have Sachin. - Ravindra Kumar - Apr. 11, 2007

Mr. Anil,

The rabid nature of your comments does not merit a reply. Yet, for the benefit of other readers let me clarify my point of view.

What Sachin did is against the law. Sachin may be hero for the millions but he is certainly not above the law. Some say that the Flag Code of India is archaic. As suggested by Mr. Anil, I checked up the meaning of the word Archaic and my dictionary says ‘of a much earlier or ancient period of history’. Indian Flag Code was formulated in 2002 and to call it archaic is beyond my understanding. Now someone may come up and say the code is archaic in spirit. What do one say to someone who says that a flag is only a piece of clothe and it doesn’t have any special importance? I don’t necessarily agree with all the laws in India but that doesn’t mean I go and break them, unless I am ready to face the consequences. A person of Sachin’s stature should have known better and not disrespected the Indian Flag.

Now, why do some people call the Indian Flag Code outdated? Because they see the Americans using their flag on all type of clothing including the bikinis/ undergarments and for anything according to their whims and fancies. Then they conclude that it is the accepted form of behavior. These People want to blindly ape the Americans and hence term it outdated. I say that to respect the Indian Flag is our sacred tradition (never mind what some others do) and we should continue respecting it.

I am sorry for calling Mr. Aarcee a reporter. This was my first ever visit of PatnaDaily.Com and I failed to see the wording ‘Reader Write’. This was the only mistake I made in my earlier comments and certainly did not merit the type of comments made by Mr. Anil. After all, it wasn’t an unpardonable sin especially when the gentleman in question wants to completely exonerate Sachin who had just made a serious violation of the law. Double standards I guess. - Shibu John - Apr. 12, 2007

I am glad to see divergent views on this issue. One reader disagreed with me by throwing the IPC at me. Another reader disagreed with me with the contention that in this particular incident, we have to go by the rules that were there on the books at the time of the alleged offence. Another reader understood the point I was trying to make and expressed his support. He understood that I was talking about the archaic nature of laws meant to protect the honour of the Indian flag and not about the innocence or guilt of Sachin Tendulkar.

What should be done in this case then ? Sachin Tendulkar and the Indian High Commissioner may be charged with desecration of the flag. I will go with that. It is the law, and however imperfect, it must be imposed. This is real life and unlike the dramatic ending of the movie Guru, the laws at the time of the offence are applicable. So, I will go with that. But a Judge has to look at the issue on the table and if he finds wanton and willful intent to disrespect the flag (which I don't think was the case), he may mete out the punishment accordingly.

More importantly, this issue has opened the door to the debate about the old laws that in the well meaning intent to preserving the honour of the flag, become an impediment to its enjoyment and use. I hope someone who is in a position to revise these laws reads this exchange and sets things right. - Aarcee - Apr. 12, 2007

I do not challenge the intent and spirit behind the cake-cutting ceremony. May be it was good. But the hard part is how do you inculcate spirit as a justification of law and whether you can extrapolate spirit into the whole criminal judicial system. It is said law is blind and can appear to be unjust but then how do you go about justifying in breaking one law because intent was good and not breaking another law because intent was wrong. Is there a parameter to measure this spirit ? Someone can kill a person and say the he killed this person in the good spirit of killing a traitor. I mean it raises whole lot of complications.

I also agree the laws need to be changed but there is due process to it. Till that happens, I strongly believe we should follow the law in letter at least. You have given sound logic to change the law too but then do not defend Sachin till the law is changed. - Ravindra Kumar - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Anil Kumar,

You way of agreeing to others is pretty offensive and insulting to everyone. You may be right and the brightest planet but does it give you the right to comment in the way you have done. I doubt even Einstein was so rude to other people who were obviously not as good as he was. - Ravindra Kumar - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Shibu:

So your response was a knee jerk reaction to Mr. Aarcee's viewpoints. You did not even care to look for which section of PatnaDaily was this article written on. And then you throw the entire Indian Penal Code as if others did not know the consequences of desecrating Indian Flag. Then to top it all, you call Mr. Aarcee an ignorant. Didn't you say so?

And my reaction was unjustified? Just like you, others, including myself, can also be a smart alec wisecrack.

Mr. Aarcee is a regular contributor on this forum. He has written on various topics. Some agree with him and some disagree. I have disagreed with him too on some occasions. That's the whole idea of having a discussion. But you just walk in here, flash your intelligence as if all others are stupid, and then hurl insult at one of the regular and respected visitors of PatnaDaily and when I reacted with equal or more force, you say it's unfair?

Mr. Ravindra Kumar also disagreed with Mr. Aarcee. You did not see me criticizing him, or did you? Having different opinion is one thing but to barge in here and start insulting another visitor of Patna as if you are the only one who knows everything is quite different. If anything at all, you owe an apology to Mr. Aarcee and I'll then back off from my vitriolic stand as well. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Ravindra Kumar:

Sorry you feel that way but to each his own. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 12, 2007

We see many good things happening after the opening of the economy. We have removed the barriers and adopted many things which were good from the world outside the borders of India. However, we remain very orthodox in our thinking. We need to globalize our thinking as well.

In many countries people have their national flag hung outside their houses all the year round. It adds to the feeling of belonging ness and patriotism. If the flag gets wet in the rain it does not catch pneumonia nor is it frightened to hang outside the house in the night. There is no intended disrespect if the flag gets wet or if it is not removed at sunset.

Today, thanks to the Draconian laws, having your national flag fluttering outside your home is a scary prospect in India. The result is no one sees the flag except for about two days in a year. The "two days a year" flag hoisting bolsters our patriotism and we feel proud of our Indian identity on those two days. The other 363 days we are either Biharis, Gujaratis, Malyalees, Bengalis, Forwards, Backwards etc, etc, etc, etc, etc & etc. - Rajesh - Apr. 12, 2007

I somehow find comments of Mr. Aarcee on code of our National Flag very distasteful. Mr. Aarcee calls it archaic and pathetic. Whereas I feel that our code on National Flag is compatible with our culture. There are many things which we Indians don’t want to do US way. I will never be comfortable with a code recommending National flag on bikini or napkin. - Shiv Shankar Sharma - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Anil Kumar,

So it’s a question of ‘we’ against ‘them’. How dare a newcomer challenge a veteran of this forum? Many forums show the tally of the number of postings for each member, which means a greenhorn is forewarned that disagreeing with a veteran is at his own peril. But I had no way of knowing that Mr. Aarcee is a seasoned campaigner here.

Mr. Aarcee’s article was implying that the it is completely a non-issue and the IBN Anchor was wasting time since the Americans do all sort of thing with their national flag (including toilet paper, doormats). I disagree with that.

The main question is whether or not Sachin transgressed the law and if he needs to be punished for it is secondary. I have never said that Sachin should be punished for the offense (which can be a fine, a prison term of up to 3 years or both as per the law). But he needs to regret his action and admit that it was caused out of his ignorance. Is it too much to expect for desecrating the nation flag? Certainly not. But the Indian High Commissioner should be dismissed and given an appropriate punishment as he cannot claim ignorance as an excuse. He was appointed to uphold our constitution and the laws of the land and he by his despicable action has utterly failed in his duties.

As I said before, I would not have termed Mr. Aarcee as ‘ignorant’ if I knew he was only a reader. Hence, I am willing to retract the said comment. But Mr. Anil, you don’t have to back off from your vitriolic stand because it will puncture your bloated ego.

Finally, let me point out some factual errors from Mr. Aarcee's writing:

i) The national flag can also be hand spun and hand woven wool, cotton & silk apart from khadi. It can also be made of paper for waving when used on special occasions.

ii) There is no restriction of hoisting the national flag on any day of the year or by the general public. But it shall be per acceptable rules of conduct.

iii) The flag shall be flown from sunrise to sunset ‘as far as possible’, which means that a single violation will not lead to prosecution.

iv) An damaged or soiled flag can be disposed off by burning or other appropriate methods in private.

So our flag code isn't archaic after all! - Shibu John - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Shibu, you still don't get it. It's not between 'us' and 'them'. My attack on you was only after you completely missed the spirit of Mr. Aarcee's comments, hurled insult at him, and failed to realize that this was a Readers' forum. I couldn't care less whether you agree or disagree with Mr. Aarcee, it's a free world and everyone has the right to have his or her opinion.

My problem was your attitude. You came here with a bully attitude without first understanding the context of the article, the nature of forum, and wasted no time in calling the writer an ignorant. This is how it all started in case you have forgotten.

When I countered your bullying and rude tactics, you go on a defensive mode trying to make me look like a villain 'with a bloated ego'. I could say the same for you by reading your first message here. After you realized your mistakes, you could have simply backtracked your arrogant statement in your next posting, apologized to the writer, and I would have been more than willing to apologize for my rude, though intentional, outburst. End of discussion. Instead, you are (still) going round and round in justifying your act that was very offensive to start with, whether you admit it or not.

This kind of bullying tactics I have seen in many internet forums. Like drive-by shooters, someone comes to your house, fires a few round and then hides in the bushes laughing at the misery of others. Such trolls take immense delight in moving from forum to forum just to stir up trouble and they continue to do so because no one dares to stand up against them. While some may not react to such crude behavior, I find it to be very offensive and therefore my strong reaction against you.

I am done with this mud-slinging competition. - Anil Kumar - Apr. 12, 2007

Reading all the discussion about the issue I was wondering what happens to millions of "National flags" (made of papers) we see/buy on 15th Aug/26th January? Practically all of them are thrown.

Does anyone know how should we treat those "paper made flags" on next day? Also should we punish all the children and their parents/teachers for not respecting our national flag? - Manoj - Apr. 12, 2007

It is unfortunate that discussions on the issue of the flag code became heated and degenerated to vitriolic name calling. PD is an excellent forum where I see readers come in raw and over time refine their communication skills. They go from being hurtful to moderate. I have seen this happen to many of our veteran contributors. It has happened to me too. On occasion the PD editor has had to shut down the readers' write section when it overheated like the core of a nuclear power plant gone crazy! In all this fighting and name calling, we as a people, are learning the art of dialog. There is a saying that "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Here we learn this simple edict through our experiences of hurting and getting hurt. We all have to make rules for ourselves and even though the temptation is great at times, we must not deviate from it. The skill of carrying on a dialog, disagreeing and yet having the other party like you is not innate. It is a learnt behavior. We do that learning here on this forum.

I called our flag code restrictive, simply because it prevents the National Flag from being a part of our lives. How many readers have a decent National flag in their homes ? When was the last time they hoisted it ? I would love to see the saffron, white and green fluttering everywhere, throughout the year. Wouldn't you ?

Some of us find putting the flag on a piece of cake a revolting idea. It is all a matter of how we are conditioned.

Just to examine how people in other countries look at it, I did a search for Union Jack doormats. I ended up finding a toilet seat with the Union Jack on it! The caption said "Be the envy of your friends!" Check it out:

http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/Product.asp?iProductID=7144

While I never suggested that our flag be put on anything related to cleaning or ablutions, I did call for easing the law enough that people use the flag with love and not keep away from fear of desecrating it.

Disagree, but use sweet words. Read the intent and make sure you are not 'interpreting' the article. Human nature ties disagreement to unfriendliness. We have to learn to delink the two. That is the road to teamwork - something that Indians (in general) lack. - Aarcee - Apr. 12, 2007

Mr. Aarcee please realise that there are some topics where people will get emotional. Respect to National Flag is one such issue. I have all three, India’s Tri Colour, UK’s Union Jack and America’s Stars and Stripes, together on my desks in all three countries. I will never show disrespect to Union Jack or Stars and Stripes by using them as napkin even if I find an American or English doing so. I have been brought up Indian way and I respect these flags Indian way.

Please don’t feel offended simply because people have disagreed with you. Why don’t you accept that you wrote something provocative and people reacted to that? What is this attitude; you write something provocative and then accept people to control their sentiments. First you used word ‘pathetic’ but now you are using ‘restrictive’. You then send a link and then you suggest you didn’t mean it. Where you read that Indian Flag code does not allow Indians to love their National Flag? I think rather than asking readers to interpret your views in right perspective it is time for you to interpret the Indian national flag code in right perspective. - Shiv Shankar Sharma - Apr. 13, 2007

If Sachin could play few ballistic game during World Cup Cricket, no one was going to question his ignorant act of cutting through Indian National Flag, I mean Cake! He might have done this several time in past so, he took the flag image on Cake easy. In my view Sachin should be spared after making him say Sorry on national TV. He is a Matric Pass legend and certainly has bring lots of glory to the nation apart from being on almost every billboard of every foreign products.

I will leave Sachin alone and will go after the Commissioner organizing/participating the Cake cutting ceremony. He must be punished. Generally, commissioner of an Indian consulate are IFS officers and if high commissioner of Jamaican Consulate could not realize the sensitivity of the Indian National Flag being cut on a Cake then he should be ashamed of himself.

Interesting part of this discussion, Manoj has raised more serious and valid issue in his comment. Shibu Dada and Anil Bhaia, what's your thought about Manoj's comment? Could you please say something, I mean anything. :)

And Aarcee, please take these two Moganbos (Shibu and Anil) easy and continue your thoughtful contributions to PD. They both are right at their point(s) and will cool down when they read Manoj's view. I hope. - Naren Singh, India/USA - Apr. 13, 2007

I would again beg to differ about Sachin. He is equally guilty for this offense as is that embassy official. When I say this, I am not forgetting all the special innings that he as played for us in the past. It has nothing to do with his failure in the world cup or being a cricketer. I just do not want to be emotional in handing out the judgment when there is crime. I would expect the same to be done to me if I was doing the same. It is high time we stop letting these celebrities go scot-free whenever there is something wrong done by
them.

It would serve as a reminder to all of Indians that being ignorant about a crime does not make us any less of guilty of it. - Ravindra Kumar - Apr. 13, 2007

Sharma ji, how many topics you want to ban from discussing? Let's see - religion is out of question because you are bound to hurt someone's sentiments. Politics? I might offend Lalu supporters if I said something against their leader. Reservation? God forbid. We are already at the brink of having a war between various castes thanks to our leaders and their supporters. Bollywood? My liking for Amitabh Bachchan might offend the Shah Rukh fans. Music? I might be tortured by the 20-something crowd that thinks rap is music. Sex? Oh, never mind!

Should we make a list of all the items that offends or might offend other people and give it to the PatnaDaily.Com with the instruction not to allow discussion on any topics that is included in the list? That will make this forum quite interesting.

I frankly don't think Aarcee touched a controversial issue. It's just a debate that had been going on in India for quite some time just like reservation, Indo-Pak relations, whether Sonia Gandhi should be allowed to become the next PM, etc. etc. People should take it with the proverbial pinch of salt. Some people here are taking it too seriously but then I could be wrong.

Or have we become a nation of wimps who are too scared to talk about any issue because someone might get offended? Just because something is controversial in some people's opinion does not mean it should not be discussed. Someone is always going to get offended no matter what the topic is. I do realize that there are certain topics that are best left undiscussed but this flag issue is certainly not one of them. Some people think there should be more liberty in using the flag; others feel it's the sacred cow and should be left untouched. Life goes on.

Now I am worried I might have offended you! I certainly hope not and if you think I did, I apologize in advance. - Rajiv Chandra - Apr. 13, 2007

Growing up I remember that there used to be the National Anthem after the movies with the image of the flag fluttering on the screen. They shut down this practice because no one respected the flag enough to stand in attention for the couple of minutes that the anthem lasted. Ladies would start adjusting their saris and people would start filing out of the theater. By the time the anthem was over, there were only discarded peanut shells in the theater left to hear the "Jai hey" part! I bet if the anthem was included once more today, the same - if not worse, would happen again.

There is, as very aptly pointed out, two days a year reserved by most people to half-heartedly feel national pride. There is no denying that this disconnect arises from sparse and strictly controlled use of the National flag. If not the sole reason, it could very well be one of the main reasons.

This surge of reverence for the flag and the urge to lynch two individuals who very apparently had no motive to desecrate the flag amazes me. Even from the footage shown on TV, it was very clear that there was no realization on any of their faces that they were breaking the law. If they meant to, would they allow the event to be videotaped ?! They lynch squad must understand that everyone can, once in a while, err and not realize. To use this excuse to drag the name of a player (who had brought so much glory to the country) in the mud is beyond my comprehension. Since it appeared unintentional, I would look the other way. I pray if this matter goes to court, the judge is not of the "Lynch squad" mentality. - Aarcee - Apr. 13, 2007

Aarceeji,

I agree at your observation about the national anthem. But I always felt it is more because there is lack of awareness about being in attention pose whenever the national anthem is played. I wonder if you pick five persons randomly from Gandhi Maidan, how many of them would know about this simple fact that we should be in attention pose whenever the national anthem is played as a mark of respect to the song. I would say the same to the question of flag disposal after 15th August celebrations. There is clear lack of awareness among common people about how to dispose the Tiranga in a respectful way. In my personal way, I have not seen any disrespect to the national anthem whenever I have been in any event where this song is played. If I am there and see it happen, I would feel offended as an Indian and clear show my protest at this disrespect, no matter where I am and among whom I am present.

Its funny that you raised this issue as there was some controversy towards N. R. Narayan Murthy playing that instrumental version in stead of the actual song because some foreigners will feel uncomfortable. I was not present at that function but his explanation was ridiculous to the least. I go to July 4th celebration and I see Americans singing their heart out a rendition of Star Spangled Banner with such full gusto. Do they think even once whether there are foreigners present in the audience or not. But hey that's me. I should keep quiet and learn to live with this utter tosh of an explanation given out by Mr. Murthy. Why ? Because he happens to be IT czar. Lets put a stop people. Lets make people aware of such national symbols. There are very symbols representing India and the pride of India in the way our anthem and flag does. Lets educate every one around us to show the respect it deserves. I know all of us love India which was clearly evident during Kargil war but if we love something then does not it deserve our respect in the way it is supposed to be. Why there be exceptions to it ?

It also raises the question of prevalence of law. Coming from Bihar, do we need to say more ? How much we have suffered for the lack of law there ? I think we know better than most what it should mean to live in a society where law is the paramount. No exceptions. Be it Sachin, Murthy or whoever Mr. big shot he is. - Ravindra Kumar - Apr. 13, 2007

I had decided not respond to this subject again. But hopefully for the last time, I am tempted to give my comments on a particular aspect.

Someone has raised the question of paper flags. As per the flag code of India, “such paper Flags should not be discarded or thrown on the ground after the event. As far as possible, it should be disposed of in private consistent with the dignity of the Flag”. I hope the intent of the person who raised the question was not to equate Sachin’s offense with that of the school children, as these are different cases.

Sachin and the 'men in blue' have made millions by commercially exploiting the Indian patriotic fervour and people’s love for the national flag and it is ironical that these very people have now treated it with contempt (even if unintentionally). - Shibu John - Apr. 13, 2007

Discussion on this topic is now closed.